Chief Ebenezer Babatope, a former minister for Transport is a PDP Chieftain. In this interview, he spoke on typical political issues. Read on…

Nigeria is going through severe upheavals and tension. What is responsible for this?

The tension you are talking about is created by the party called APC, within the party called APC. What happened is that they mismanaged the affairs of their party, as a result of which Tom Ikimi had to do a two-page advertisement in the newspaper (I read the advert) to inform Nigerians of what actually happened in the party, especially during and before their convention. There is no tension in the country or between APC and PDP. It is tension created by APC for APC.

2015 is drawing very close. What does it hold for Nigeria apart from elections?

Naturally, elections are festivals for politicians. Expectedly, it is believed that parties especially opposition parties will throw in everything into elections. Their belief is also strong that they will take over power, from the ruling party. Tension must always be there. But the processes and methods should be ones that should guarantee peace and make the country to move ahead. Their style and the numbers they have is not one that can give any serious party any positive assurance of success. They got these members by luring individuals in the PDP to their party, through awkward  means. They got these members by governors elected on the platform of the PDP defecting to them. So these are members who have actually traded the votes given to them by people in their constituencies.

So anybody who thinks he can grow fat with that kind of political prostitution is actually deceiving himself. We are going for elections in 2015. Nigerians are not fools. Nigerian people are not politically gullible. They are politically enlightened, politically sophisticated and they will give vent to their own opinions. They will vote according to their consciences. We have done a lot in this country by investing on democracy. The Chief of Defence Staff said something which gladdened my heart. He said we are going to protect democracy to make sure that it survives.

In the case of Buhari, he will tell you that he did not plan a coup, that he was invited to come and head it. He can tell that to somebody who is “mumu” (a fool). But at the end of the day, what was the result? He was removed by the same military people that he said invited him. He was removed like ‘Jigger’. He has been fighting to become president since that time. I wish him the best of luck. But honestly speaking, it is not going to be easy for any group of people, whether in the military or outside the military to plan a subversion of the current democratic path. We have challenges already and we have been trying to solve it.

I believe that by the grace of God, we are going to lay the challenges to rest very soon when we come together. But talk of a coup d’etat, that is far fetched.

Still on the coup issue. When you go back to history, the military have always claimed to intervene patriotically on the side of the people when politicians can’t get things right. Do you not think that the present Boko Haram insurgency is a good enough excuse for the military to come in, ostensibly to suppress it, since it is proving to be hard nut to crack for the politicians?

Chidi, I am very happy that the Nigerian military is made up of intellectuals. Many of them are graduates. Many of them hold professional degrees. Many of them hold professional positions that make them to see the reality of the Nigerian nation. Believe me, if they claim that the politicians lack the capacity to arrest the insurgency, how are we going to believe that they will solve it? They are involved now. They are fighting and making sacrifices for Nigeria .

If they say politicians cannot do it, let’s go and do it. It will be a mistake. Having said that, if you look at Nigeria carefully now, you will find out that the younger elements are not really ready to accept what those of us who are their leaders accept or what our leaders, Awolowo, Azikiwe, Ahmadu Bello accepted. There is a proliferation of politically conscious organizations everywhere now. We have OPC (Odua Peoples Congress) Egbesu Boys, MASSOB (Movement for the Survival of the Sovereign State of Biafra), and these are not ordinary organizations.

They are organizations formed by young people who want to be ruled and governed by sane men. If they see that they are being governed by people who have not got the mandate to rule, they will resist. We must remove the idea of a coup because Nigeria will be worse for it, and we must sit down together as Nigerians to brainstorm and find solutions to our challenges. When we do that, we will be helping the nation.

The Boko Haram insurgency is tending towards the South following reports that there was an attempt recently to bomb a church in Owerri, the Imo State capital. On the heels of that came the interception of a whopping 486 young men travelling to Port-Harcourt in 33 buses, by soldiers. What is your view on this development?

Nigeria is a very lucky country. Anytime something ugly wants to happen, God will always intervene and nip it in the bud.

You were detained in Adamawa State after the collapse of the Second Republic. Recently the state is in the news over moves to impeach the governor by the state House of Assembly. As a keen follower of events in the state, do you not see the hand of PDP in the saga?

Thank you very much. I am not particularly well informed about the activities of the PDP members of the House of Assembly in Adamawa State. But I know that the chairman of the PDP in Adamawa State, Mr Joel Madaki was with me at the Yola prisons during the Buhari led military regime. Joel Madaki was the only commissioner in the state then who was put in prison by the military. He is a fine gentleman, very dedicated and loyal and very clear headed politically. So I want to link up with him to find out about the issues in that state. But if they have served Governor Nyako with an impeachment notice, if he is a politician, he should face the music. It shouldn’t be anything that is strange to him. We will see the outcome. But I can assure you that the Joel Madaki I know will never lead a political party that will be parochially involved in just trying to impeach Nyako for the mere fact of impeaching him. We should wait.

If the impeachment pulls through, there are strong indications of a backlash because APC people are crying foul.

Adamawa people are very knowledgeable people, politically sophisticated. During the Second Republic, the UPN overran the state, run by Waziri Ibrahim of the GNPP who is from the state. We had two senators from the state. So, you cannot push Adamawa people by the side. If Nyako is impeached, well he is impeached. He has to dance to the music. Having said that, let him sit down and reflect. Let him try to find out why this thing is coming to him. PDP is not given to trivia. So if the PDP is spearheading the impeachment, then he should re-examine himself.

President Goodluck Jonathan is always at the receiving end of criticisms especially by some of the governors. Why is he so vilely criticized more than we have ever had in our history?

That is the political strength of Jonathan. It is not because myself and GEJ are in the same political party that I am giving him support.  Jonathan more than any person in the past has been able to allow democracy to have its full meaning and expression in Nigeria. He guards jealously democratic values, and he also protects the right of the people of Nigeria to express themselves in whatever way. If the governors you are talking about, can complain about the President, what about themselves? All that Jonathan has done is to take these criticisms in his stride. I am impressed. He doesn’t take on them or decide to become a tyrant, because they are criticizing him. Nobody can find any evidence of tyranny in all Jonathan has been doing. I am optimistic that no matter what they do, Nigerians appreciate him. He is a fair minded person. Those who are criticizing, they can continue. What is important is the attitude of Jonathan to allow them to have their say.

Talking about tyranny, he was accused of recent of grounding the aeroplanes of some governors in order to stop them from visiting Ekiti State?

When has Jonathan become the Inspector General of Police? When did he become the Chief of Army Staff, that they are now saying that he is the person doing all these things? The security agencies have their reasons for doing these things. Nigerians should sit down and analyze that party called APC. That party is a monster of a political party, capable of using any thing and issue to create havoc in the society. They are right to seek for power. But you have to go about it through decent and lawful means. When you destroy the country because you are looking for power, who then will you be governing?

Nigerians are not animals. The APC people should ask for the forgiveness of God. They use blackmail, lies, propaganda, to pursue their nefarious objectives. They should make accusations that are sustainable.

He does not have to be the Inspector General of Police or Chief of Army Staff to fight his detractors. The buck stops on his table as the President. They all report to him.

What I am saying is that those security agencies must have their reasons for their actions. If some people carry on in a manner that may threaten the peace and security of the country, they have to act. The primary duty of the police is to maintain law and order, and I want to see the grounding of those aircraft in that light. They are doing their duties.

Over to the South-west geo-political zone. Two elections are slated in the zone (Ekiti and Osun states) before the 2015 elections. Presently, the APC controls the zone, except Ondo State, which is being ruled by Labour Party. What is going to be the political outlook of the zone in 2015?

The PDP is poised to ensure total victory of the party in the South-West and in all states of the Federation.  By the time you publish this interview, the election result in Ekiti State would have been announced.  The PDP is now bouncing back.  All the frictions, internal conflicts in the party have been resolved.  Don’t forget that our candidate in Ekiti, Ayo Fayose was a victim of this internal crises and he left because of the problems.  He is back now.  PDP has learnt its lessons.  We no longer will continue with a style whereby we shoot ourselves in the feet.

We have come together in full force.  The people of the South West are telling us “Go and pull yourselves together” and we are already coming together.  You can be sure that President GEJ will win majority of the votes in the South-West. We are determined to do that. Apart from that, we as a party will win the elections in the South-West. It is so clear.  In Oyo State, though Ajimobi is doing well in terms of being level headed, but the APC has shown it is not fit to govern.  In every state, internal crisis is ravaging them.

The problem of Ajimobi is not PDP. It is coming principally from the APC. In Ogun State, you cannot discountenance Segun Osoba.  He is a master schemer.  When we were in secondary school, we used to call him “Baba Ino” i.e. master of planning.  Segun Osoba can put up a big occasion within 15 minutes.  He is a brilliant person, very gifted, very focused, and very visionary.  And the state governor wants to fight Segun Osoba?  We of the PDP will keep tab on the divisions among them and ensure that at the end of the day, PDP will have its way in Ogun State.  We are coming back.  We have learnt our lessons.

Former President Olusegun Obasanjo, who is from the South-West appears not to be in tandem with the PDP agenda in the zone.

I wish former President Obasanjo the best of luck.  One thing you must not deny him is that he has a high level of native intelligence.  Obasanjo’s native intelligence surpasses that of any person I have met.  Even Baba Awo said that.  Be that as it may, we are very happy that every move that he is making, we are aware of them.

The last convention of the APC, we saw his hands.  I am not going to show to you, how he showed his hands.  We have discovered the hand he showed in the APC convention.  By the grace of God, we are now ready to match his antics and combat his political acrobatics.

No problem, PDP is not bothered.  We are not going to show him disrespect.  But we are working.  The death of a tsuma inside the Atlantic Ocean is caused by too much water and not the swimming.  What this means is that it is the tide of a man who swims too much that will cause his own downfall.  He is not going to stop the PDP.

How did he show his hands in the APC?    

I am not going to tell you that.  But I want to tell you that those who can read political situations will tell you that what I am telling you is correct.  He showed his hands.  Let me show you a simple clue. It is not so easy that my ‘aburo’ Engr Segun Oni will just jump from the sun and become the Deputy National Chairman of the APC (South) Ah! Ah!

We understand what is going on and we are ready for him.

PDP/APC politics is getting headier by the day, fuelling fear that the 2015 elections may not hold and if it holds, there may be bloodshed  

By the grace of God, there won’t be bloodshed in Nigeria.  2015 will come and go.  We are going to co-operate and collaborate with INEC to run very good elections in 2015 and PDP will continue to rule.  I am not going to go into organizational analysis of how PDP will continue to rule.  By the time we go for elections, APC would have become a wrecked party.  They will not be able to offer any challenge which is worth the while.

Giving the security and political problems plaguing the nation now, how do you look at Nigeria?

Nigeria is a great country.  Don’t forget that I told you that Nigeria is a very lucky country.  God loves this country.  Those who are prophesying doomsday for Nigeria are wasting their time; because Nigeria is a country well loved by God.

Some documents are flying around at the National Conference by some groups calling for secession from Nigeria .  With these developments, do you still have faith in the country?

I have passed through the writing and circulation of fake documents. I have passed through it and we have seen it before. When we were in Abacha’s government, there came a publication which claimed Awolowo’s cap and glasses and they wrote that the Yorubas were plotting to destroy Nigeria. But eventually, Nigeria remained Nigeria.  We have seen documents where people concocted minutes of meetings, non existent meetings to say that people were planning to destabilize Nigeria. Nigeria still continues to exist. I know that  with our faith in God, Nigerians are very deeply religious people. Those who are Christians  believe in God and are very fanatical. Those who are Muslims believe in Allah very fanatically. We pray to the same God, the same Allah, and I know that with our faith in God, He will manifest himself in different ways at the appropriate time. I have no doubt about that. And that will make people to believe that Nigeria is destined to survive. Nigeria will continue to exist.

Your optimism about this country, does it fly in the face of the clampdown on the media and other things being perpetrated by the government?

There is no clampdown on the media. How can that happen? Many of us who are members of the PDP are journalists. And you think we can fold our arms and allow anybody to muzzle the press? The Nigerian press is difficult to muzzle. All the things that are happening are creations of the opposition to discredit the PDP government. But we know that at the appropriate time, Nigerians will know the truth. How can any sane person feel that he can muzzle the press in Nigeria.

Even in the days when we had the Amachree  case in the old Rivers State, where  Diete-Spiff, the governor, got his head cleanly shaved for publishing an embarrassing story on his birthday. But that was that time. Olu Onagomwa wrote a position paper for the Nigerian media. The Nigerian media went to court and we still have a Nigerian media today. Don’t worry. All that is happening is the manipulation, fabrication, and machination of the opposition. But never mind, they will be tuned because Nigerians are going to wear them out. Nigerians know that they are not a part of this funny thing they are doing.

I want to go back to the issue of instability. If there is no issue of secession as being canvassed in some quarters, what of a coup-d’état by the military?

A coup by the military should be discountenanced by all right-thinking persons, because when the military does a coup, what purpose does the military want to serve by that coup.

What is the main achievement of that coup? I know that the Nigerian Armed Forces is made up of men and women who are well educated and can break through all situations, no matter how they affect them. The Nigerian military will not participate. When it happened before during our time in the UPN, we came out to say that we will never accede to anyone doing a coup. I remember that I wrote in my column in the Nigerian Tribune where I warned Nigerians about Buhari when he said that Nigerian soldiers should start reading the Nigerian constitution for a future role they will be called upon to perform. We opposed it. Papa Awolowo never supported any extra democratic means to overthrow democracy.

What do you gain by coup? Those who are talking about coup, they don’t know what Nigerians need. The new generation of Nigerians don’t even see things not to talk of those who are our leaders. There is also some interplay of forces that will not aid any coup. For instance, you have the OPC (Oodua People’s Congress) MASSOB (Movement for the Survival of the Sovereign State of Biafra) Egbesu Boys, the Niger-Delta militants and so on. And somebody wants to do a coup? How are we sure that it will not be shattered by this strong, ideologically committed organizations, so it is not sane for anybody to contemplate a coup now. Let us join together. Boko Haram is not a problem of GEJ (Goodluck Ebele Jonathan). Boko Haram is not a problem of APC, PDP or whatever. Boko Haram is a national problem. All of us must sit down together and bring out solution to Boko Haram.  But to talk of a coup, anyone who is talking of a coup is an enemy of Nigeria and he must have his head medically examined.

Do you ascribe Buhari’s persistent presidential ambition in this dispensation to what he said during the Second Republic on the future role of soldiers in Nigeria ?

He has been very persistent. I praise his persistence and courage. I don’t want to score a cheap point because I am in the PDP; he is in APC. He is in the game. I am sure he will make a fourth attempt to contest again. That’s not my business. That’s for his party to decide. But I can assure you that anybody who has misread the political situation in Nigeria will continue to miss the point, and will continue to fail in the process.

President Goodluck Jonathan from his body language will likely seek to return to power in 2015. How do you see it?

I cannot speak for him. But I can tell you that majority of PDP members, and PDP leaders are asking him to complete his second term, to run again. It is for him to decide whether he wants to run or not, because it is essentially his decision. But I want him to run. Many others want him to run. So, apparently, he may have to bow to the wishes of PDP members and leaders. And when he does that, by the grace of God, Insha Allah, he will win.

There appears to be internal opposition in PDP on this, because we learnt that Governor Sule  Lamido of Jigawa State is revving up his machinery to challenge him.

Sule Lamido has already refuted that. Sule Lamido is an ideologically committed person. He belongs to the Talakawa movement of the late Aminu Kano. He is a friend, and we have known each other for a long time politically. He was in PRP, while I was in UPN.

He has said no to it. Even, there are  no powerful organisations to stand up to say they are challenging GEJ. Majority of PDP members are saying he must run again, and I can assure you that the voice of the people is the voice of God.

You were an active participant in the politics of the Second Republic. What do you think is lacking in this dispensation?

You can’t compare the two. In the Second Republic, don’t forget, we had people who were great leaders, who led their political parties in a manner that made people to respect those parties. Papa Awo led UPN, I can assure that nobody will forget easily the role that Awolowo played in ensuring that we had a peaceful atmosphere. Shagari gave him national honours, and he accepted.  He did a lot.

As I told you, the UPN never at any given time supported the idea of a coup d’état. In 1979, a group of military boys came to Baba Awo and asked him “will you support a coup?”

Baba said no, don’t ask me that question again. Don’t come here again. And he sent them away. There was Dr. Nnamdi Azikiwe, the Owelle of Onitsha, fantastic leader, leading the NPP. It was a good  party. Even the late Waziri Ibrahim that led the Great Nigeria Peoples Party, GNPP, continued to say until he died that his own was politics without bitterness. That’s what we had at that time.

What is absent in Nigerian politics today is that you cannot get leaders of the caliber of the people I just mentioned. Eventually, Nigerian politicians operating now will learn from experience. And by learning from experience, they will be acting in conformity with what Africans believe in, that is age,  maturity and experience. So once the current politicians respect that, then the sky is the limit for them.

I would like you to speak on the crises of insurgency and political succession plaguing the country.

By the grace of God, Nigeria will continue to exist. Nigeria will survive all the current insurgencies, all the current attempts by people to disturb our sovereignty, unity, stability and progress, that is what we have to do. I always marvel, when I see the fanatical support Nigerians give to their sports men and women. Look at the World Cup, going on in Brazil , anytime Nigeria plays, the frenzy in the air is overwhelming. It is a national affair. But after the match, we come back to talk of insurgency. Even Boko Haram people will support Nigerian team playing in Brazil. The other time they went to bomb a football viewing centre in Borno State.  I am sure it was a mistake. Nigeria will survive. The country will survive. God will not sign anything that will  destroy the unity equation of the country.

What is your recipe to the raging political succession crises?

There is no succession crisis. We must continue with what we are doing. 2015? All parties will be free to present their candidates and the candidates will go to the Nigerian people, and the people will choose one of them to be their leader. There are no succession crises, I repeat. There may be problems here and there, in terms of how do we weld our country together to ensure that we don’t have rancour? But the people who are going to come out to lead their political parties to the elections are Nigerians. And if they are Nigerians, then they must play the game as Nigerians want them to play the game. I can assure you that no Nigerian of any tribe, whether down in Kirikiri, from Abonnema, from Brass, from Ilesha, from Shaki, from Borno, from Jos, will ever support the idea that the country should disintegrate. What the Americans are saying that Nigeria will disintegrate, I don’t think it will work. And I know that Nigeria will continue to exist as one united, indivisible entity.

Do you have faith in the ongoing National Conference?

Why not? I have faith in the National Conference. They are talking and they are talking sense. I must say that by the time Nigeria harnesses what they come up with; the nation will leap forward in progress. It is going to be in the best interest of the Nigerian people.

Courtesy: The Sun